Patreon is the worst enemy of all adult game players

[thatisthecase]

The guy you quoted (who is me), literally said that Asian games have simplest stories and never addressed their writing in the post you quoted. If you felt offended and have read "simplest" as "inferior", it's a you problem...

You literally said " The Asian scene is the poorest in terms of writing and character development. It goes for the adult gaming scene at the opposite of what happen for the comics scene, Asian are far behind in terms of final quality."

Ah yes "poorest in terms of writing and character development" and "Asian are far behind in terms of final quality" certainly do not have anything to do with the quality of the writing. Come on man, we all know what words mean. Why can't you even own up to your own post?

Also the fact that you think they have simple plots shows that you've played nothing but RPG maker trash

 

[tanstaafl]

Are you sure about that? Are you 100% sure "for profit" is a fair way to put it?

It was more a play on the expression "for fun and profit", but you're right it wasn't all for profit, sometimes it was devs trying to make a name for themselves so they could get hired by companies...and THEN make a profit

[lots of links snip]

See above, your information is incorrect by 6-9 years.

No, it's not. It was around that time that GaaS and others really started to gain momentum. MMORPGs were the new kid on the block and games like Ultima Online, Everquest, and the like had minimal impact other than as inspirations to the rest of the gaming industry. Everquest, which was by far the largest MMORPG until WoW came around only had what would be called a disappointing amount of subscribers total by the time WoW came out (it's had more by now, 21 years later, ), then of course, WoW did come out and it shattered expectations, hitting millions. It was then and only then that we saw an explosion of similar. Thus I went with 2007 to pair it with the explosion of mobile GaaS games. I could have added "give or take a year or two" but I was lazy.

Edit: Yes I remember games like Asherons Call, DAoC, Earth and Beyond, Anarchy Online, and several others that tried between Everquest and WoW, but there weren't very many, and most of them didn't last long at all, though most of them have special places in many people's memories, it could NOT be called an explosion...perhaps a slight bump. The good news?

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is still going fairly strong. I play it every now and then still.

Judging from your replies, at least some of your memories are through rose tinted nostalgia. That's how it works, we remember the late nights and the fun times and completely forget how crushing it was to hear black isle had gone out of business, the frustration of BOD in the middle of a winning streak in quake, the tolerance we had (our generation) when in the middle of a 3 hour run our last bot got stuck on rocks in unreal.

It's fine even good to fondly remember the old days but nostalgia has no place when discussing facts.

There is no rose tinted nostalgia. Prior to the changes in game dev that I'm talking about independent companies that weren't subsidiaries of larger companies made games that worked or they disappeared...or they were bought out by EA or Ubisoft, heh...which is basically still disappearing.

 

[Insomnimaniac Games]

Prior to the changes in game dev that I'm talking about companies made games that worked or they disappeared

I don't know, Bethesda games are pretty broken.

 

[tanstaafl]

I don't know, Bethesda games are pretty broken.

I KNOW! Ugh...there's always that one company that gets away with it. They're like the ICSTOR of AAA games.

 

[anne O'nymous]

Why can't you even own up to your own post?

Oh, I can, but you see there's this thing: Not only I'm not self absorbed to the point to pass my time reading again and again what I wrote, but I also have a life and things more interesting to keep in memory that what I wrote.

So, my bad, I did actually addressed the writing in that two years old post...

 

[morphnet]

It was more a play on the expression "for fun on profit", but you're right it wasn't all for profit, sometimes it was devs trying to make a name for themselves so they could get hired by companies...and THEN make a profit

You're still not acknowledging all the dev and studios that went out of business using the release full games model though.

No, it's not. It was around that time that GaaS and others really started to gain momentum. MMORPGs were the new kid on the block and games like Ultima Online, Everquest, and the like had minimal impact other than as inspirations.

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From runescape 2001 to eve online 2003 to second life 2003 to WOW 2004 and all those in between, plus the expansions to games etc. clearly shows it started long before 2007. Really started is counted when subscriptions, expansion and putting real cash into games after purchasing the base game became the norm and that was long before 2007.

It was then and only then that we saw an explosion of similar. Thus I went with 2007 to pair it with the explosion of mobile GaaS games. I could have added "give or take a year or two" but I was lazy.

How do you categorize an explosion? and since when did explosion equal normalization or setting "the standard"?

Edit: Yes I remember games like Asherons Call, DAoC, Earth and Beyond, Anarchy Online, and several others that tried between Everquest and WoW, but there weren't very many, and most of them didn't last long at all, though most of them have special places in many people's memories, it could NOT be called an explosion...perhaps a slight bump.

The ones that did fail, did NOT fail because of their business model, they failed because people didn't enjoy them, moved on to new things, left or joined friends in other games etc. Also an "explosion" doesn't start something, it ONLY happens after companies have seen the idea works and is accepted. After that it's a gamble on the game itself.

There is no rose tinted nostalgia. Prior to the changes in game dev that I'm talking about companies made games that worked or they disappeared...or they were bought out by EA or Ubisoft, heh...which is basically still disappearing.

I'm not going to dig through all the old games I know I'll leave this one example and you can judge for yourself if indeed you real aren't seeing through rose tinted nostalgia?

Hexen 1995

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[tanstaafl]

Hexen 1995

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Hexen is a bad example of this. You seem to be conflating "online game" with the GaaS model. Hexen, and Heretic, were pay once, then play online games...like Unreal and Counterstrike. These were NOT GaaS model games until much later when they added cash shops to buy nifty daggers.

Side note: Hexen was fun as fuck.

 

[tanstaafl]

[snip]

You are thinking that because a game existed and it was online that it fit the GaaS model. This isn't the case. MMORPGs were the forerunners of the model and they did start the explosion, but as I said, it wasn't until WoW that it really picked up steam. But then it kept picking up steam. I mean...

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and it's not a good outlook for us simple gamers. And let's not ignore this statement I made, which you addressed, but not the main point of the statement.

It was then and only then that we saw an explosion of similar. Thus I went with 2007 to pair it with the explosion of mobile GaaS games. I could have added "give or take a year or two" but I was lazy.

The main point of the statement is that between WoW's first expansion Burning Crusade in 2007 (when it REALLY hit the high numbers of subscribers) and the mobile wave of apps is when the explosion of GaaS games really started.

Edit: And the year 2007 is quite literally the least important part of what I'm trying to say overall and it's the main hang up people have. Frustrating.

Edit_Again: And to address your question of what I think an explosion is, I think it's a significant increase in overall percentage in comparison to other game for profit models.

 

[morphnet]

You are thinking that because a game existed and it was online that it fit the GaaS model. This isn't the case. MMORPGs were the forerunners of the model and they did start the explosion, but as I said, it wasn't until WoW that it really picked up steam. But then it kept picking up steam.

Except offline games like the sims 1 and others existed at that time too, as I said I'm using known easy reference games. The sims 1 received 7 expansions between 2000 livin large and 2003 makin magic, the core game got 9 additions / versions between 2000 and 2005. That is just one example along side the mmo's.

The main point of the statement is that between WoW's first expansion Burning Crusade in 2007 (when it REALLY hit the high numbers of subscribers) and the mobile wave of apps is when the explosion of GaaS games really started.

and as I pointed out an explosion is not the start, it can only happen when there is a accepted standard already.

Also none of this moves us closer to the topic which is patreon and complete games model or release updates model and their connection.

 

[tanstaafl]

Also none of this moves us closer to the topic which is patreon and complete games model or release updates model and their connection.

The only connection to the model was that I stated earlier that Patreon exacerbates the situation by normalizing certain expectations for people. I didn't focus on the statement, I just made it. It was responses to it that got this part of the conversation going.

 

[Dryme]

Haram + cursed

 

[morphnet]

The only connection to the model was that I stated earlier that Patreon exacerbates the situation by normalizing certain expectations for people. I didn't focus on the statement, I just made it. It was responses to it that got this part of the conversation going.

True so putting all else aside I think we can all agree that patreon is not the worst enemy of all adult game players and chalk the rest up to good debate practice

 

[tanstaafl]

True so putting all else aside I think we can all agree that patreon is not the worst enemy of all adult game players and chalk the rest up to good debate practice

True enough, lol.

 

[anne O'nymous]

Side note: Hexen was fun as fuck.

This and Baldur Gates, the two games that led my wife to be a more hardcore gamer than me...

 

[tanstaafl]

This and Baldur Gates, the two games that led my wife to be a more hardcore gamer than me...

Dude, Baldur's Gate was so many people's gateway game. Worth it.

 

[peterppp]

Have you looked at the state of Steam Indie Games?
Patreon is paradise compared to that.
And it's pretty much inevitable that Indie Devs will migrate to Patreon, porn or no porn.
Once that happens you will see what real competition is.

how is patreon paradise compared to steam?

adult game devs generally make more money on steam than on patreon (if they are on both). for this reason, more and more adult game devs that were previously only on patreon are now also releasing on steam. so sfw indie devs "migrating" to patreon is not a problem for them.

why "migrate" to patreon when you can be on both patreon and steam? and why would sfw indie devs earn more on patreon than on steam when adult devs dont?

lastly, sfw indie devs do only marginally compete with adult devs since it's a fairly different market. to exaggerate, it's like saying it's gonna be harder competition for adult game devs because musicians will migrate to patreon. sure, people dont have unlimited money to spend, but that's about the extent of the competition

 

[DuniX]

how is patreon paradise compared to steam?

Because it actually Costs Money to make a game.
And even if by some miracle that you manage to release a game it's likely to make jack shit.
This is spite of having substantial investments in terms of graphical assets and maybe even have a team behind you.
You could lose all that investment.

With Patreon you can also launder graphical assets with Koikatsu, Honey Select, Daz or AI CG.

adult game devs generally make more money on steam than on patreon (if they are on both). for this reason, more and more adult game devs that were previously only on patreon are now also releasing on steam. so sfw indie devs "migrating" to patreon is not a problem for them.

That's only if their projects have some measure of completeness to release on Steam or were already successful on patreon and have the budget to release in a reasonably finished state.
But nobody is funding their half baked alphas on Steam.

lastly, sfw indie devs do only marginally compete with adult devs since it's a fairly different market. to exaggerate, it's like saying it's gonna be harder competition for adult game devs because musicians will migrate to patreon.

There is nothing stopping an Indie Developer adding some vanilla porn to their game.
This is nothing new, this is what happened to Japanese Games, there are plenty of RPGs, Strategy Games, Puzzle Games with their equivalent of Indie Studios that are great and got started as Eroge series.
Unlike the bunch of amateurs we have here they actually know how to make Gameplay, write Stories and Balance their Fucking Budget. I can't imagine why you would think when they come they wouldn't BTFO their competition.

Indie Games are in a bad place, they aren't making any money so they are looking for alternative solutions.
You are better of building a brand and presence on Youtube with development logs and whatnot then you are releasing and succeeding on Steam. Or add porn and compete directly.
It's really a simple equation, if releasing a game on Steam does not pay off then you can only get more support from the audience you do have through things like Patreon.

 

[peterppp]

Because it actually Costs Money to make a game.
And even if by some miracle that you manage to release a game it's likely to make jack shit.
This is spite of having substantial investments in terms of graphical assets and maybe even have a team behind you.
You could lose all that investment.

With Patreon you can also launder graphical assets with Koikatsu, Honey Select, Daz or AI CG.


That's only if their projects have some measure of completeness to release on Steam or were already successful on patreon and have the budget to release in a reasonably finished state.
But nobody is funding their half baked alphas on Steam.


There is nothing stopping an Indie Developer adding some vanilla porn to their game.
This is nothing new, this is what happened to Japanese Games, there are plenty of RPGs, Strategy Games, Puzzle Games with their equivalent of Indie Studios that are great and got started as Eroge series.

Indie Games are in a bad place, they aren't making any money so there are looking for alternative solutions.
You are better of building a brand and presence on Youtube with development logs and whatnot then you are releasing and succeeding on Steam.
It's really a simple equation, if releasing a game on Steam does not pay off then you can only get more support from the audience you do have.

wrong. adult game devs release early access on steam similar to on patreon. you dont wanna release a v0.0001, which steam will likely reject anyway, but once you have a decent amount, you can release it to early access, and adult devs do that.

you also dont need a succesful patreon since you generally make much more on steam and it only costs $100 bucks to register your game. the exception is if you have pirated your assets, like daz assets, and need to buy them to not get in trouble on steam. that can potentially cost more than you will make if you have expensive assets and dont do well on steam. but that's more the exception than the rule.

 

[anne O'nymous]

how is patreon paradise compared to steam?

adult game devs generally make more money on steam than on patreon (if they are on both).

In 2022, Patreon did

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, and it appear that in average Patreon represent only 41% of a creator income. It obviously vary depending on the category you're on; by example game creators can't apply to coaching. But it being an average smoother those differences.
I'm too lazy to search, but there's many NSFW game creators who talked about this, and globally between 60% and 33% of their earning come from Patreon. On what side one is depending on his game popularity (the more popular it is, the higher are the chance that people get it from itch.io or Steam by example) and the creator's popularity (the more (s)he's know, the higher he'll be asked for commissions).

why "migrate" to patreon when you can be on both patreon and steam? and why would sfw indie devs earn more on patreon than on steam when adult devs dont?

Basic one dimension reasoning ("SFW have a bigger public, bigger public mean more money") that rely on a reverse of the thinker core belief ("people hate Patreon because it's nothing but a scam"->"all creators on Patreon are scammer") that is extended ( "All scammers want to be on Patreon") then filtered by the thinker delusion ("I love Steam, so it's totally impossible for scammers to be there").
Kids, do not reproduce this at home, it's a thinking process that should be left to professionals with years of experience in "facts and common sense doesn't matters".

lastly, sfw indie devs do only marginally compete with adult devs since it's a fairly different market.

Anyway the "competition" between SFW and NSFW game creators is not something new at all.

There's near to 3 times more SFW game creators on Patreon (

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) than there's NSFW game creators (

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). It have always been like this. Globally the demographic for the twos evolve in parallel.
The oldest SFW game creator date from may 2013, while the oldest NSFW one date from June 2013. And if you split the list in half, there as many SFW game creators that were on Patreon before June 2021 that after that date, while for NSFW game creators it's Nov 2021.
The last point is interesting, because it's only mid 2016 that Patreon achieved to

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, by securing a deal with Payement processors for them to handle their transactions. Yet it clearly wasn't such important issue for NSFW game creators, it just made Patreon more attractive for them after that date.

But well, is it surprising that DuniX drawn a theory without checking the facts first?

 

[DuniX]

But well, is it surprising that DuniX drawn a theory without checking the facts first?

Your analysis is moot when you don't account to what is happening with Steam Games.
That is the vector you should look at.
Yes obviously all kinds of projects have always existed on Patreon.