Patreon is the worst enemy of all adult game players

[tanstaafl]

[snip]

It acquired subbable in 2015, but the true software as a service features weren't fully in place until 2017 when it began implementing membership benefits and the like. You keep trying to drop knowledge bombs on someone who knows the bombs as well as you do. We aren't disagreeing about anything other than whether the site is beneficial or harmful in the long run. I'm on the "it's hard to predict, it could be bad or it could be good, but in the mean time, a whole bunch of people are taking advantage of a lot of other people." And you seem to be on the "If you question anything at all about Patreon you're a heathen and a blasphemer." Which is fucking odd.

 

[Count Morado]

It acquired subbable in 2015, but the true software as a service features weren't fully in place until 2017 when it began implementing membership benefits and the like. You keep trying to drop knowledge bombs on someone who knows the bombs as well as you do. We aren't disagreeing about anything other than whether the site is beneficial or harmful in the long run. I'm on the "it's hard to predict, it could be bad or it could be good, but in the mean time, a whole bunch of people are taking advantage of a lot of other people." And you seem to be on the "If you question anything at all about Patreon you're a heathen and a blasphemer." Which is fucking odd.

When in 2017?

Because I can tell you in February of 2017, the membership shit was in full effect:

You must be registered to see the links

Even that aside, though, that's 8 years ago. It still goes to the huge number of subscribers and creators in adult games who only know of Patreon and only have interacted with Patreon AS IT EXISTS TODAY. And is what this thread is about.

I'm not about dropping knowledge bombs. I am tired of misinformation, misattribution, and misdirection - whether through ignorance and obstinance. This entire thread is filled with it because of a simple bias for the desire of people to stroke their cocks to more lewd content from creators than they think they are getting now and they are blaming Patreon and developers for their lack of strokage. Pure and simple.

I am not the one making your complaint... you are. I don't want to ignore many of the posts. There is a lot of misinformation, misunderstandings, and mistakes made in posts made by others and so I respond to them.

I despise the spreading of misinformation and willful ignorance.

There are status-quo/traditionalist views which are also defaulted to by users - whether through incompetence, incompleteness, or misinformation.

I am not going to be a meek and shy person and let people spew hatred, lies and misinformation about their bigoted views about others.

And as I have stated before on F95 - "I despise the spreading of misinformation and willful ignorance" and so I may feel compelled to respond if you do so.

hen a person lies, spreads misinformation intentionally or not, willfully denies the facts and information. When they are trying to force their bigoted views on others. That's what has been going on in this thread. That's when I will speak up.

It has everything to do with others' laziness, sense of entitlement, spreading of misinformation (intentional or not).

No, they keep asking. Others join in. Conjecture and misinformation is spread. More people join in.

You "it's hard to predict..." blah is just a facade over your bias against Patreon. That's fine, but own up to it.

I am not on the side of Patreon or developers or anyone. I'm on the side of making sure we have all the right information instead of it being filtered through a skewed lens distorted by lack of blood to the brain.

 

[tanstaafl]

When in 2017?

Because I can tell you in February of 2017, the membership shit was in full effect:

You must be registered to see the links

In June 2017, Patreon announced a suite of tools for creators to run membership businesses on the Patreon platform. Notable improvements included a customer relationship management system, a mobile app called Lens, and a service to set up exclusive livestreams.

You must be registered to see the links

Even that aside, though, that's 8 years ago. It still goes to the huge number of subscribers and creators in adult games who only know of Patreon and only have interacted with Patreon AS IT EXISTS TODAY. And is what this thread is about.

I'm not about dropping knowledge bombs. I am tired of misinformation, misattribution, and misdirection - whether through ignorance and obstinance. This entire thread is filled with it because of a simple bias for the desire of people to stroke their cocks to more lewd content from creators than they think they are getting now and they are blaming Patreon and developers for their lack of strokage. Pure and simple.

You "it's hard to predict..." blah is just a facade over your bias against Patreon. That's fine, but own up to it.

I am not on the side of Patreon or developers or anyone. I'm on the side of making sure we have all the right information instead of it being filtered through a skewed lens distorted by lack of blood to the brain.

Horse shit. You are basically felating them every time you talk about them. "misinformation, misattribution, and misdirection" my ass. The only thing you can say about what I've said is that "They've been like that for 8 years." as if that changes anything about what I said. Did I say "Last week" at any point in my posts or did I say they started one way then changed to another?

Edit: For clarity, I don't think Patreon is the problem, I think Patreon is exacerbating an issue with games and software as a whole.

 

[Count Morado]

You must be registered to see the links

Horse shit. You are basically felating them every time you talk about them. "misinformation, misattribution, and misdirection" my ass. The only thing you can say about what I've said is that "They've been like that for 8 years." as if that changes anything about what I said. Did I say "Last week" at any point in my posts or did I say they started one way then changed to another?

Did you read the article or only depend upon the text in wiki? The wiki sentence you quoted is not what you think it is. This is the misinformation, either through ignorance or obstinance, that I am talking about. Either you grabbed at that sentence ignorantly thinking it supported what you thought, without looking further --- or you intentionally quoted thinking someone would not check.

You specifically stated:

I feel it is very pertinent to point out that Patreon was not started to be a subscription service, but evolved to be that way as more and more creators became more software as a service oriented...if only because it is something that people should keep in mind when discussing it.

No, something over a decade ago, and something that 98%+ of users (creators and subscribers) don't have experience with is not pertinent. What is pertinent is what people have experienced for the past decade --- where their gripes and complaints and whinings are coming from and being directed.

I stand by my 10 years original statement of subscription service. Especially since the archive of the Summertime Saga page I previously shared with you predates the wiki quote you subsequently provided from an article in June 2017. The article which doesn't say what you think it said.

Spoiler: ACTUAL ARTICLE REFERENCED

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Hell, the article even supports one of the arguments I've been making about what Patreon should be considered as:
"Conte says that experience was his eureka moment where he began to think about asking his fans to give him a dollar or two a month much in the same way membership platforms like PBS’ KQED does or SF MOMA does."

 

[tanstaafl]

[snip]

From day one it was used as a subscription service, which is why they implemented the tools to actually make it a business model. From day one people could contribute monthly and get access to special features and/or the content in and of itself. That, by definition, is a subscription. So, you are right it was being used that way prior to the tools being implemented and I never said they didn't, but they gave them the tools to make it an actual business model later.

But this entire argument is pointless because I have never given any misinformation about about patreon other than misremembering some book releases being serials. You seem to think that a decade is a long time, and to some people it may be, but to me it's pretty much last Tuesday. My point and my issue with Patreon is the Games/Software as a service issues with gaming and software as a whole. SaaS and GaaS articles and videos started up well before that...as the "state of games" started going downhill in a big way.

 

[tanstaafl]

If you want a platform that I think that is doing it right and actually elevating creators (writers in this case) without exacerbating an already existing issue, look at Royal Road.

 

[Count Morado]

So, you are right it was being used that way prior to the tools being implemented and I never said they didn't, but they gave them the tools to make it an actual business model later.

but the true software as a service features weren't fully in place until 2017 when it began implementing membership benefits and the like.

The tools were already there for memberships benefits before June 2017 -

in February of 2017, the membership shit was in full effect:

You must be registered to see the links

What they added in June 2017, were additional tools to enhance that which was already there. So when you say "fully in place" - sure - but that is hedging. The tanstaafl today will not be considered the "fully in place" tanstaafl of tomorrow, because some of you will change, evolve.

As for a decade not being a long time.... to me, it was last Tuesday, as well - I'm about your age - give or take 5 years either way. However, it is nearly the entire lifetime of Patreon. For at least 10 years of the fewer than 12 years of its existence, Patreon has essentially offered the same system - with a few alterations to enhance. And with some changes "of the wallpaper". For 98%+ of all the adult game developers and subscribers it has been this way for the entire time they have experienced it.

The topic of the thread was "Patreon is the worst enemy of all adult game players."

In your own words:

Edit: For clarity, I don't think Patreon is the problem, I think Patreon is exacerbating an issue with games and software as a whole.

I believe Patreon is not exacerbating issues with games and software. I think players and users with their sense of entitlement and their lack of knowledge and experience in software and game creation are the biggest issue. They don't know what is involved. All they know is what they want and that they want it now and they blame developers, in general, and Patreon for them not getting what they want when they want it.

Before the subscription model and early access models - people had to wait however long it took before a game or software would be released. Whenever a publisher decided it was time to pull the trigger. Then would come the DLC, the bugfixes, the weekly health updates, etc. And then after a few years, Software 2.0 with its subsequent DLC, bugfixes, etc.

Now, with the subscription and early access models, people are seeing how the sausage is made. The ups and downs, the dips and twists and turns. The dropping of projects, adding of new projects, the diversions, the loss of development time due to sickness, etc. They are also being exposed to a hundred-fold more games and software than they ever would have - software and games that would never make it to the retail shelves. Software and games made by a person out of the home office - slowly, in their free time, 2 to 20 hours per week - and all the frustration that goes with it.

They are subscribing without thinking with their brains, but only with their dicks. "That art looks hot" SUBSCRIBE "The story has promise" SUBSCRIBE. Etc. Without thinking about what they are getting into. The average subscription in adult games on Patreon is between $2.30 and $4.50 per person (depending upon the calculation) per month. And for that they think they are buying the software or game. They are not. They are subscribing as members to support the developer in their work in the development of a game.

Some of those games will become finalized. Some will not. Some will always be in development (such as Summertime Saga) - because they don't need a retail version anymore. If they want to revamp the art - they can continue to do so while still in development. If they want to revise the storyline - they can continue to do so while still in development. They don't have to release a retail "final" version to then offer DLC, bugfixes, health updates, and sequels to. They can just keep developing. Add characters? Sure, while still in development. Add genres, remove genres, boom.

If subscribers don't like that - they can stop subscribing and take with them what they got as membership benefits up to that point for their subscription.

I don't think Patreon is exacerbating any problems. I think players not understanding what they are subscribing to or what Patreon and the subscription system is about is the problem.

Subscribing means you like what the creator is doing. Just like when you go to the museum and drop a donation into their well before you leave - you like what their are doing. If you don't like what they are doing... don't drop a dime and head out.

As players on F95 - we have benefitted greatly for Patreon's role in game development. Without Patreon, there wouldn't be as many games with as many options as their are now. Because there wouldn't be as many potential creators who could find the carrot to entice them forward. For some, $100 USD per month may be enough in their community to survive, depending upon their economic status for their country. However, it's the potential of earning $100,000 per year or more, like creators such as Dark Cookie, or even $40,000 per year or more (still, a small percentage of creators) so that they can quit their current jobs - that is one of the draws which pulls in people to create a fair number of the games we find on here.

People who, in reality, would never get a second glance at their resume if they applied at a game studio. Particularly if the person's interest is in adult games. This is their food truck when they can't afford to run a restaurant. This is their "arts and crafts" booth when they would never get a gallery to sell their art. And players - both subscribers and pirates like me - need to remember this.

Patreon is not the problem. Patreon is not the enemy.
Developers are not the problem. Developers are not the enemy.

If you want a platform that I think that is doing it right and actually elevating creators (writers in this case) without exacerbating an already existing issue, look at Royal Road.

I'll take a look at Royal Road. As an instructor of English, anything that advances an author's chance, legitimately, to publish and earn a living is always interesting. I am currently on Substack and work with small publishing houses.

 

[Insomnimaniac Games]

I personally believe whatever cons patreon/substar may or may not have, the benefits they give far outweigh them.

 

[tanstaafl]

I believe Patreon is not exacerbating issues with games and software. I think players and users with their sense of entitlement and their lack of knowledge and experience in software and game creation are the biggest issue. They don't know what is involved. All they know is what they want and that they want it now and they blame developers, in general, and Patreon for them not getting what they want when they want it.

I don't think Patreon is exacerbating any problems. I think players not understanding what they are subscribing to or what Patreon and the subscription system is about is the problem.

Subscribing means you like what the creator is doing. Just like when you go to the museum and drop a donation into their well before you leave - you like what their are doing. If you don't like what they are doing... don't drop a dime and head out.

Patreon is not the problem. Patreon is not the enemy.
Developers are not the problem. Developers are not the enemy.

I'm not sure you are aware of the issue I am referring to honestly. It's not a scam or anything dishonest, though that is fairly common on all platforms like Patreon. It's the replacement of delivering finished games with the delivering of delivering incomplete, buggy, "we'll fix it later as you pay and play" games that are becoming incredibly common in triple A games, to say nothing of little bitty hobby or indie developers.

It's establishing in people's minds that it's just normal for games to be shit or incomplete at first.

Yes, I absolutely agree that Patreon gives people a way to get income, to establish themselves when they never would have before. But here's a hard truth, that only matters to people on the fringes. Like us, who frequent an adult game piracy site. In the bigger picture it hurts the industry as a whole more than it helps it. Just look up the SaaS and Gaas articles that have been coming out for years, the videos that are in the hundreds exploring the issue, etc.

I'll take a look at Royal Road. As an instructor of English, anything that advances an author's chance, legitimately, to publish and earn a living is always interesting. I am currently on Substack and work with small publishing houses.

I enjoy the site, though learning how to find the gems takes a minute, but it's worth it.

 

[DuniX]

I think players and users with their sense of entitlement and their lack of knowledge and experience in software and game creation are the biggest issue.

Have you looked at the state of Steam Indie Games?
Patreon is paradise compared to that.
And it's pretty much inevitable that Indie Devs will migrate to Patreon, porn or no porn.
Once that happens you will see what real competition is.

People think the good things will last forever and it will be forever a land of milk and honey.
But as Kickstarter has demonstrated things can change.
In the real world extinction happens all the time and only the fittest will survive.

 

[Count Morado]

If you want a platform that I think that is doing it right and actually elevating creators (writers in this case) without exacerbating an already existing issue, look at Royal Road.

I quickly reviewed the site. I don't see where it is good for authors? They don't get a cut of any membership fees paid to the site, they don't get advertising dollars (unless I missed something). It doesn't appear like they have the ability to monetize their works within the site.

The pro is that their content is hosted on a site that has other content hosted on it. It appears searchable and may recommend content based upon a reader's history?

It appears Royal Road is taking all the $$$ in but not sharing with the actual content creators. Unless I missed something.

Here is where I would recommend Substack over Royal Road.

It's the replacement of delivering finished games with the delivering of delivering incomplete, buggy, "we'll fix it later as you pay and play" games that are becoming incredibly common in triple A games, to say nothing of little bitty hobby or indie developers.

I get your argument. I got it since nearly the first post you made about it. I think you are completely missing the point... that's all.

They are games in development. Of course they are incomplete and buggy. That's the whole point of Patreon - for creators to get paid while they are creating. It's the patronage model. Hence, "Patreon." It's not replacing, it's "enhancing" by offering players the ability to play something - in development - that they may never have had a chance to ever play before while offering creators some $$$ to pay their bills. The creators get something the average joe cannot do, to build a community of support and to hopefully bring in a few bucks to offset their time and expenses. Otherwise they either need to get a huge bank loan, or investment capitalists, or save a lot of money over the years --- something only a very small percentage of the population can do. Patreon makes creation possible to more people.

It's not the "Gutenberg Press" - but it does lower the cost of getting into the industry down to the average person. Like how the digital camera, digital video, photoshop, premiere pro, and other tools have democratized creation out of the hands of a very privileged and/or lucky few into the hands of everyone around us.

And if a creator says "we'll fix it later as you pay and play" that is a bad creator and you should not subscribe.

In the bigger picture it hurts the industry as a whole more than it helps it. Just look up the SaaS and Gaas articles that have been coming out for years, the videos that are in the thousands exploring the issue, etc.

I disagree.

Primarily, Patreon is not a SaaS/GaaS issue. Because that isn't what is being done on Patreon. It's not "Games as a service" .... Its Games in development. Pure and simple. That's different than a released game as a service. You're mixing apples and oranges. Anyone who aligns SaaS/Gaas to Patreon is mixing their fruits.

While I do have problems with some SaaS/GaaS - such as recurring fees if we want to keep running Photoshop/Premiere Pro, etc .... That isn't what is going on with Patreon - unless you can point out to me a significant number of developers using it in that fashion.

If a developer has a completed game and requires people to subscribe to get the game and keep subscribing in order to keep playing the game - sure that's a developer using it for GaaS.

Every developer I have seen either gives their game that is in development away for free to everyone - no subscription required - or offers access to the latest version of their in development game for people to enjoy as a membership tier benefit for 1 month's subscription. They download it and play that version for as long and as often as they want with no further fees involved. Now, if they want to download an updated in development version, they may have to subscribe again - or download it free from the developer if that developer offers free for everyone. That's NOT GaaS.

Have you looked at the state of Steam Indie Games?
Patreon is paradise compared to that.
And it's pretty much inevitable that Indie Devs will migrate to Patreon, porn or no porn.
Once that happens you will see what real competition is.

People think the good things will last forever and it will be forever a land of milk and honey.
But as Kickstarter has demonstrated things can change.
In the real world extinction happens all the time and only the fittest will survive.

$100 USD per month or less for the average adult game developer even after 4 years on the site is "paradise?" yeah, if you believe that, I got a bridge to sell you.

80% of adult game developers on Patreon bring in less than $12,000 per year (after Patreon's cut, but before credit card fees, transactions, etc).

That's not paradise.

 

[morphnet]

It's the replacement of delivering finished games with the delivering of delivering incomplete, buggy, "we'll fix it later as you pay and play" games that are becoming incredibly common in triple A games, to say nothing of little bitty hobby or indie developers.

I'm sorry but I have to jump in here, "It's the replacement of delivering finished games with the delivering of delivering incomplete, buggy" we are talking about indie / hobby porn game devs, when did they first deliver full working games and when did that get "replaced" with incomplete buggy?

It's establishing in people's minds that it's just normal for games to be shit or incomplete at first.

"shit" is a broad term can you narrow that down? and when was it established in the minds of indie / hobby developers that it's normal to release full complete game and when did that change and they started thinking and delivering incomplete ones?

In the bigger picture it hurts the industry as a whole more than it helps it. Just look up the SaaS and Gaas articles that have been coming out for years, the videos that are in the hundreds exploring the issue, etc.

Can you elaborate and link some of those articles?

 

[tanstaafl]

I'm sorry but I have to jump in here, "It's the replacement of delivering finished games with the delivering of delivering incomplete, buggy" we are talking about indie / hobby porn game devs, when did they first deliver full working games and when did that get "replaced" with incomplete buggy?

"shit" is a broad term can you narrow that down? and when was it established in the minds of indie / hobby developers that it's normal to release full complete game and when did that change and they started thinking and delivering incomplete ones?

I'm old enough to remember when nearly 100% of games available to people, porn or otherwise, was released as a complete product. Nothing less was accepted. Were all games bug free? Of course not, but buggy games

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to be forgotten entirely. To people in their twenties or thirties they may not remember this time at all, but to me it is the majority of my time gaming.

As things progressed, so did the development of games, it became possible for indie and hobbyists to release games for profit, but even these games were usually complete. It wasn't until...I want to say 2007ish with the advent of smart phones and mobile apps that it started to shift over to start resembling the modern landscape with chapter based releases, and pay per dev time.

It's also at this time that we started to see cash grabs and GaaS start to make a rise. Why? Because people got used to getting crap from the jump and then paying as they waited for it to get better. Patreon fits this mindset just fine and results in a lot of "Well it's 10 minutes of game right now, but..." or "Well, the dialogue seems to be written by a 15 year old that just got hit repeatedly in the head, but..."

Can you elaborate and link some of those articles?

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(neutral explanation with pros and cons)

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(also neutral, but more optimistic)

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(exhaustion sets in)

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(decidedly against)

 

[anne O'nymous]

The guy I quoted literally said Asian games have inferior writing

The guy you quoted (who is me), literally said that Asian games have simplest stories and never addressed their writing in the post you quoted. If you felt offended and have read "simplest" as "inferior", it's a you problem...

He also said "In a way, this tell a lot about the cultural difference" so don't tell me this doesn't mean to denote cultural background of the devs.

Please, keep the context:
"In Asian games, the characters are way more stereotypical than on the Western scene, and they rarely evolve ; what a character is at the start of the game, is what she'll be at the end of it. In a way, this tell a lot about the cultural difference ; when it come to seduction, the mind matters more than the appearance."

Unlike what your post want to express, this do not address the writing of the game. The cultural difference being in what the players want; Asian players tend to give the priority to the personality, while "none Asian" players tend to give the priority to how the girls looks like.

Be also noted that the post you quote is more than 2 years old...

 

[anne O'nymous]

[sorry for the double post]

I personally believe whatever cons patreon/substar may or may not have, the benefits they give far outweigh them.

And the problem only lie in the mind of those who can't understand that human beings are free to do whatever they want and to spend their money the way they want.

It's not because they are greedy and selfish, that everyone have to be like them. Some consider that they can spare few bucks every month, for a given period of time, as reward, encouragement, or thanks, for a dev who, to their eyes, deserve it.
And why the fucking fuck, someone would have something to say against this? Their spouse, if they think that this money could be spend in a better way, yeah, but they are the only person on Earth that can have a say regarding this.
Everyone else doing it is just a wanabe controlling bitch who can't stand that people do not share their views and want to impose their own opinions on everyone's mind.

 

[TheMagicalGurl]

When I expect payment for my labor according to OP:

 

[MarshmallowCasserole]

As things progressed, so did the development of games, it became possible for indie and hobbyists to release games for profit, but even these games were usually complete. It wasn't until...I want to say 2007ish with the advent of smart phones and mobile apps that it started to shift over to start resembling the modern landscape with chapter based releases, and pay per dev time.

I really think consumer perception has nothing to do with games as a service. Remember, videogames started one bite of gameplay per quarter, and if that's not a service then I don't know what is. Then later there was WoW, and slightly before it EQ, RO, UO, to name a few. These games were undeniably a service.

No, games as a service was always an outgrowth of broadband proliferation. There was a small window of time where physical ROM distribution was miles ahead of downloading from internet. That's when shipping a 100% functional ROM was almost the only way to sell games. But even then there were patches. I remember patching my games, downloading new exe's via modem, and hey, at least on one occasion save files were borked, officially so. Still, a game had to be at least somewhat playable from a clean ROM install because there was no guarantee that a user would have free internet access.

But we're in a different age now. Downloading a game is fast and fundamentally more convenient, and most important, it's ubiquitous.

The pressure to get the product to the market ASAP was always there. It's just today you can expect 100% of your customers be able to patch your shitty release with a day 0 patch. They have the infrastructure that handles all that with relative ease, where before they largely didn't.

It's also at this time that we started to see cash grabs and GaaS start to make a rise. Why? Because people got used to getting crap from the jump and then paying as they waited for it to get better. Patreon fits this mindset just fine and results in a lot of "Well it's 10 minutes of game right now, but..." or "Well, the dialogue seems to be written by a 15 year old that just got hit repeatedly in the head, but..."

Here's the thing: Patreon was not created with gamedev in mind. It was created with more traditional art in mind, and that's where its major revenue share lies. For a traditional creator, who does create art pieces regularly, Patreon works extremely well, because the billing cadence is more in line with content release cadence. Monthly art packs, weekly podcasts, this sort of thing, and monthly billing. Hell, there's even a per-release billing scheme. It's still just a few minutes of content per month. "Well, it's 10 minutes of content," without any buts, here's your $5, mr. creator, have a productive month.

Unfortunately some content is just harder to serialize. It was already mentioned above that a lot of classical literature was in fact first released chapter by chapter, in pulpy journals. But a novel is a linear and static work, it is possible to plan the major plot and character development points from inception. It is theoretically possible to do that in a game, but realistically the branching and interactive components make it too hard. There's no good solution, if you plan your game from the start, you'll very unlikely to get a new genre-defining title. If you don't plan from the start, then any crowdfunding comes with perverse incentives to milk the simple fools that trusted you. No legal liability does that.

 

[morphnet]

I'm old enough to remember when nearly 100% of games available to people, porn or otherwise, was released as a complete product.

Ok first of all, WE (me included) need to stop blurring the lines and referencing normal (sfw) games (indie to AAA) and porn games in the same breathe and pretending they are on the same playing field. Second, I'm old enough to remember a time before video games, which means WE (you and I) are old enough to know the difference between games developed by a company and games developed by an individual or small team of indie / hobby developers.

Your statement was

I'm not sure you are aware of the issue I am referring to honestly. It's not a scam or anything dishonest, though that is fairly common on all platforms like Patreon. It's the replacement of delivering finished games with the delivering of delivering incomplete, buggy, "we'll fix it later as you pay and play" games that are becoming incredibly common in triple A games, to say nothing of little bitty hobby or indie developers.

Replacement refers to the replacing of one thing with another. In order to replace one thing with another, both have to exist at the same time. Complete, full, almost bug free games were a thing of the past LONG before patreon even opened their doors.

Also, while I don't think you are doing it on purpose, you are giving a very rosy outlook for full completed games while not in any way sharing the same downsides you are sharing about releasing as updates.

Releasing full, complete games has many downsides,

When the game was not received well many studio's found themselves indebt, some were forced to close.
When some game were well received, the studio was bought and many developers lost their jobs.
Some studios were bought just for a popular / profitable franchise and then it was handed off to others inhouse and many lost their jobs.
Having little to no reputation, if the first game flops, there are very few willing to get the second etc. and try it, meaning a lot of money is invested in creating a game where the developer / s, studio, already have a bad name and there is a high chance they won't make it back.
as well as MANY other pitfalls being glossed over.

So the replacement ship has sailed long ago, the models being used now have been (for better or worse) accepted and embraced by the general gaming community for a long time now.

Nothing less was accepted.

At the time nothing else was released, so claiming "was accepted" is untrue, we can also see it is untrue because when other thing were released they were accepted. Early on, gamers (serious and casual) had a chance to talk with their money and tell ALL developers / studios / companies that they did not and would not accept anything less than full, complete, almost bug free games and they didn't. They accepted the change, they moaned abit in corners while emptying their wallets.

Were all games bug free? Of course not, but buggy games

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to be forgotten entirely.

That or became cult classics, try give the full picture.

As things progressed, so did the development of games, it became possible for indie and hobbyists to release games for profit, but even these games were usually complete.

Are you sure about that? Are you 100% sure "for profit" is a fair way to put it? How many actually made a profit? Being able to do something and actually achieving it are two different things. For every minecraft how many lost all their own money they invested in their game?

it wasn't until...I want to say 2007ish with the advent of smart phones and mobile apps that it started to shift over to start resembling the modern landscape with chapter based releases, and pay per dev time.

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1997

In September 1997, Ultima Online launched and opened the first game servers to the public.[27] Upon release, Ultima Online proved popular, reaching 100,000 paying subscribers within six months, causing severe lag problems.

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2001

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2002

The game was a subscription-based online multiplayer version of the 2000 Maxis game

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2004

It's also at this time that we started to see cash grabs and GaaS start to make a rise.

See above, your information is incorrect by 6-9 years.

Why? Because people got used to getting crap from the jump and then paying as they waited for it to get better.

In order for people to "get used to" they would have had to have that experience for awhile, the next generation would have to have missed out on the previous models used and they would have had to have accepted the new model from the start.

Patreon fits this mindset just fine and results in a lot of "Well it's 10 minutes of game right now, but..." or "Well, the dialogue seems to be written by a 15 year old that just got hit repeatedly in the head, but..."

Patreon is servicing the market as it is today, people don't run businesses on nostalgia. If patreon ONLY accepted creators creating full, complete creations they would NEVER have become successful, would not have the reputation they do today and hundreds of thousands of people would have lost out.

Judging from your replies, at least some of your memories are through rose tinted nostalgia. That's how it works, we remember the late nights and the fun times and completely forget how crushing it was to hear black isle had gone out of business, the frustration of BOD in the middle of a winning streak in quake, the tolerance we had (our generation) when in the middle of a 3 hour run our last bot got stuck on rocks in unreal.

It's fine even good to fondly remember the old days but nostalgia has no place when discussing facts.

Porn game dev's are not on an even playing field with normal game dev's
Patreon now accepts NSFW content but was not started or designed for it and all it's own difficulties.
There is NO system in existence that is perfect, any system can be taken advantage of but there are MANY more honest content creators than there are dishonest ones, patreon gives people all the tools and freedom of choice they need in what to do with their money and how to deal with fraud.
Most people complaining about patreon DO NOT support the dev they are unhappy with, some even openly and proudly admitting it.
The reason complaining people have to use extreme examples like "finding jesus" is because there are so few dev's actually taking advantage of the system.
Porn indie / hobby dev's do not have the financial backing or avenues to get backing that normal game dev's do.
Porn indie / hobby do not have the same exposure or audiences that normal game dev's do.

The idea patreon is making things worse just because a small group is taking advantage of their system makes no sense. If it was at least a moderate to large group that sentiment might hold some water.

it's like saying "1000 cars pasted 10 were speeding so the traffic police and cameras aren't working"

Over 7800 dev's on patreon and maybe 100 taking advantage (and that's me being generous) and that proves patreon is making things worse? what about the 7700 dev's who aren't taking advantage?

I also had a whole section typed out for the articles you posted but all that really needs to be said there is Gaas and Saas have nothing to do with patreon or indie / hobby porn game dev's.

 

[anne O'nymous]

I really think consumer perception has nothing to do with games as a service. Remember, videogames started one bite of gameplay per quarter, and if that's not a service then I don't know what is.

Strictly speaking, video games started before this, with the good (hmm) old console with pong and other basic black and white game. Without forgetting the mandatory shooting game and it's frustrating mechanism since you had to precisely hit the white part for the captor to count it, and it to be in a not too curved part of the TV screen for the ray to be caught by the said captor.
Yet you're not wrong. Arcade machines is what make games evolve and become popular.

No, games as a service was always an outgrowth of broadband proliferation.

"Games" and "always" are precisely the words. Because it don't limits to video games, and goes back far in history. I'm too lazy to find references, but it shouldn't be hard to find some explaining how middle age fairs had attractions where you can have some entertainment against a buck or two.
After all,

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, that still can be found here and there nowadays, date back from the 17th century and surely don't come from nowhere. Talking about it, it's modern age versions are pachinko and pinball. Two games as service that appeared in the early 1900's for one, and in the 30's for the other, slowly replacing Bagatelle.

 

[Insomnimaniac Games]

When I expect payment for my labor according to OP:

That's what I felt like doing to myself when I was getting yelled at from all sides to make a higher-tier sub.