minibaer12

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I am interested in why you think Rockford would, "take the politics offer to try and make incest legal?"

That's something new and I don't think anything in the AVN so far suggests Rockford would even contemplate such a thing. Is it impossible? No. But it would take really uncharacteristic behavior from Rockford [as he now stands] and uncharacteristic apathy from those seeking to propel him into office to go down that path.

LeavingDNA is NOT an AVN one should simply apply typical AVN porn logic to.

If Rockford/Emmeline were to even contemplate moving forward with an intimate relationship, where do things stand from what we know about the characters so far?




1. How would Emmeline feel about it? That we don't fully know, but by the end of Epi 4, her reaction is negative. We do know that she holds some traditional values about family, in the sense she wants nothing more than having children and a reliable, monogamous man to raise them with. But how far is she willing to go to achieve this? There is a large difference in Emmeline's reaction to the cliffhanger revelation, depending if she and Rockford are just friends, if she had sex with Rockford, or if she's possibly impregnated by Rockford. The thought of impregnation after the revelation CLEARLY horrifies her. So, under what circumstances would Emmeline go forward with an i-relationship with Rockford? Among the considerations are her position on abortion [if impregnated], especially given her strong desire to birth children, and/or how "head over heels" in love with Rockford she is. With the former, she may carry a baby to term no matter what. With the latter, her emotions might result in irrational behavior that compromises her belief system. EDIT: Emmeline also carries the shame of being a rape victim. What would the latest revelation do for her self esteem, especially after sex/impregnation?

2. How will Rockford feel about it? Everything about Rockford so far indicates he values the sanctity of biological family ties - something he's never had - above all else. He has also expressed his views on the i-subject [note - this comes up in a conversation on the Aghavni path, but the assumption is that Rockford's beliefs are consistent across all the routes], and he strongly believes if he had a sister, he'd feel like he was their protector. He'd never want to do anything to make them feel uncomfortable or afraid, such as sexually exploiting them. This is apparent in his inability [up to the end of epi 4, at least] to see Jamie as anything other than a "little sister," despite no real biological connection. Rockford seems against the i-subject in general. It feels like Rockford would have to change a lifetime of ingrained behaviors and beliefs and overcome his traumas to continue down the i-path - he has to confront and deny the demons that cause him to shut down and pull away from people to avoid intimacy for fear of abandonment. He would have to completely change his belief in the sanctity of biological family. Emmeline is now his real "little sister," not just a surrogate little sister like Jamie, or a mistaken little sister like Colleen. He would have to bend/abandon his beliefs in doing what's morally right and the sanctity of the law.

3. What are the legal, social, and professional implications of Rockford/Emmeline going forward with an intimate relationship? This would depend if they can keep it hidden. However, Aghavni knows, but the DNA test result is part of an official police investigation. Marriage is clearly out of the question, and I would venture that Rockford continuing a relationship with Emmeline would be both illegal, potentially compromising Rockford's legal career as an ADA, and would kill any political ambition he may have in the great state of California. His political opponents would bury him. Would Rockford and Emmeline want to bear the burden of the social cost/stigma? Let's not forget that Rockford is a public figure and minor celebrity. We all know how tabloid journalism works, especially with really juicy and salacious gossip... How much does Rockford adore the public adoration, even privately? Does that adoration affect his self-image and self-esteem?

3. How will the others react, and how will this affect Rockford and Emmeline's decision-making going forward? We have Robert Jamison (potential reaction unknown), Malena (potential reaction unknown), Jamie (her feelings/position are well known and it could potentially derail her friendship with Rockford), Aghavni (someone who still harbors romantic feelings for Rockford and is on the side of the law), and Senator Carrington/Cassie (who see Rockford as a pawn to further their own political goals. Sen. Carrington also has family and political reputations to uphold... would he cut Rockford loose, meaning the Carrington family ostracise him?).

If Sen. Carrington/Cassie found out about Rockford continuing an i-relationship, I highly doubt they would take the risk of having him run for office, let alone allowing Rockford to grandstand on the i-issue if he did get elected.


So, these are just some of the things that could affect the Rockford/Emmeline path going forward. Impious Monk has thought this through and he has repeatedly stressed he has a specific story to tell - one that's grounded in the mechanics of real life relationships and traumas, not some AVN fairyland.
Well, your explanation reads well and is not without proper logic and conclusion. But, after reading your post and thinking about it, and also mentally reviewing EP4, I have to say: Damn, Impious Monk is good!!!

But first things first:
- We know how Rockford thinks about family. Your point 2 does not need any further additions to this

- Rockford's confession to Jamie seems like a declaration of love between siblings. This is reinforced by his reaction when Jamie announces that she is leaving, that he is genuinely happy for her. That is not the reaction that Jamie expected. I assume that this reaction will encourage Jamie even further to move away.

- When playing through EP4, my first thought when I reached the cliffhanger was: Oh, WOW, but the diagnosis is fake. Since I am not on Emmeline's path anyway and only see her as a friend, I am not interested in it any further. For me it is completely irrelevant whether this finding is real or not and I don't want to get into that discussion.

- My problem is the timing. The revelation comes at a very bad time. Well, we can say with some certainty what will happen in EP5. Rockford will focus on Emmeline and not pay any attention or thought to Jamie. He will let her go and I fear with disastrous consequences.
 
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John972

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Well, your explanation reads well and is not without proper logic and conclusion. But, after reading your post and thinking about it, and also mentally reviewing EP4, I have to say: Damn, Impious Monk is good!!!

But first things first:
- We know how Rockford thinks about family. Your point 2 does not need any further additions to this

- Rockford's confession to Jamie seems like a declaration of love between siblings. This is reinforced by his reaction when Jamie announces that she is leaving, that he is genuinely happy for her. That is not the reaction that Jamie expected. I assume that this reaction will encourage Jamie even further to move away.

- When playing through EP4, my first thought when I reached the cliffhanger was: Oh, WOW, but the diagnosis is fake. Since I am not on Emmeline's path anyway and only see her as a friend, I am not interested in it any further. For me it is completely irrelevant whether this finding is real or not and I don't want to get into that discussion.

- My problem is the timing. The revelation comes at a very bad time. Well, we can say with some certainty what will happen in EP5. Rockford will focus on Emmeline and not pay any attention or thought to Jamie. He will let her go and I fear with disastrous consequences.
I also thought the cliffhanger revelation was fake, until IM clarified his intentions [I thought this because of something very specific in Epi 1 and a bit later on that directly contradicted the validity of the test result; something IM said he's addressing in the next epi].

Epi 5 was "bad timing" and a downer for those of us expecting/hoping for a more "traditional" AVN experience with Jamie. It's hard to see any reason Jamie would appear much in the next couple of episodes unless something changes drastically. Right now, I'm just crossing my fingers that there will eventually be a happy ending with Rockford/Jamie. If there's not, well, hey, that's life, and this level of uncertainty is one of the things I like about this convention-breaking AVN.

PS -

- Rockford's confession to Jamie seems like a declaration of love between siblings. This is reinforced by his reaction when Jamie announces that she is leaving, that he is genuinely happy for her. That is not the reaction that Jamie expected. I assume that this reaction will encourage Jamie even further to move away.
I disagree in part. Rockford's reaction to her saying she was moving away is EXACTLY the reaction she predicted earlier. She knew, no matter what, Rockford would withdraw and close himself off emotionally because that's what he's always done.

There are two interesting dialogues at the Estate in epi 5:

1. Jamie telling Trevor she wanted her decision to be "her choice" [I'm not entirely sure of the meaning here. She says that as the reason she hadn't told Rockford sooner]

2. Trevor telling Jamie that the only way she'll know for sure how Rockford really feels about her is to announce she's leaving.


I don't know what impact, if any, these dialogues will have on epi 5.
 
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minibaer12

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I disagree in part. Rockford's reaction to her saying she was moving away is EXACTLY the reaction she predicted earlier. She knew, no matter what, Rockford would withdraw and close himself off emotionally because that's what he's always done.

There are two interesting dialogues at the Estate in epi 5:

1. Jamie telling Trevor she wanted her decision to be "her choice" [I'm not entirely sure of the meaning here. She says that as the reason she hadn't told Rockford sooner]

2. Trevor telling Jamie that the only way she'll know for sure how Rockford really feels about her is to announce she's leaving.


I don't know what impact, if any, these dialogues will have on epi 5.
This discussion is actually irrelevant to me. For me, the core of the issue was already clear much earlier in the short conversation between Trevor and Jamie: After the movie, Tevor asks Jamie: Why do you let him treat you like a sister? And she answers tearfully: I know. What you are saying is (once again) confirmation of this basic statement (question).

By the way, forget that the paths, including the Jamie path, will be easy. On all the paths I don't expect stones, but rather huge boulders on the way to the desired destination!
 
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John972

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This discussion is actually irrelevant to me. For me, the core of the issue was already clear much earlier in the short conversation between Trevor and Jamie: After the movie, Tevor asks Jamie: Why do you let him treat you like a sister? And she answers tearfully: I know. What you are saying is (once again) confirmation of this basic statement (question).

By the way, forget that the paths, including the Jamie path, will be easy. On all the paths I don't expect stones, but rather huge boulders on the way to the desired destination!
Well, in that case, even the conversation between Trevor and Jamie you quote is irrelevant because even earlier than that, Jamie tells Seo Jun she thinks it's time for her to grow up and move on from her childhood crush because she's realizing Rockford and her will only ever be friends. But, you rightly chose to bring it up. This is, after all, a free exchange of ideas.

All the dialogues reinforce that Rockford blew his chance and he will have a LOT of work to do to win Jamie over, if he chooses to do so. And that's the boulders you mention... However, I don't fully discount a scenario where Jamie stays in the next epi. I just don't expect it. After all, all dialogues in 3.95 episodes pointed to Solomon Hobbs being Rockford's father, and we know how that turned out.
 
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minibaer12

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All the dialogues reinforce that Rockford blew his chance and he will have a LOT of work to do to win Jamie over, if he chooses to do so.
That's probably the only point on which we both agree 1000%.

And as for the bold text: What if she decides to finally break away from Rockford and he SOMEDAY realizes that he wants Jamie as his girlfriend too?
 
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John972

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That's probably the only point on which we both agree 1000%.

And as for the bold text: What if she decides to finally break away from Rockford and he SOMEDAY realizes that he wants Jamie as his girlfriend too?
:) In that last scenario you mentioned, Jamie should give Rockford the Rockford treatment... ;)

I'll add that the dialogues do offer some slight glimmers of hope.

Seo Jun flat out asks Jamie if she's over Rockford during that conversation I mentioned, and Jamie answers "I don't know".

Jamie never confided with her Trevor (up to and including the pool scene) that she is finally over Rockford. Trevor talks to Jamie like Rockford is still the love of her life, although he suspects by the pool scene that she might be ready to move on.

I kinda get the impression Jamie is something like 70/30 or 60/40 in favor of moving on, and I suspect her romantic flame for Rockford is not extinguished yet.
 
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minibaer12

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:) In that last scenario you mentioned, Jamie should give Rockford the Rockford treatment... ;)

I'll add that the dialogues do offer some slight glimmers of hope.

Seo Jun flat out asks Jamie if she's over Rockford during that conversation I mentioned, and Jamie answers "I don't know".

Jamie never confided with her Trevor (up to and including the pool scene) that she is finally over Rockford. Trevor talks to Jamie like Rockford is still the love of her life, although he suspects by the pool scene that she might be ready to move on.

I kinda get the impression Jamie is something like 70/30 or 60/40 in favor of moving on, and I suspect her romantic flame for Rockford is not extinguished yet.
well, basically you gave the answers yourself:

1. You once mentioned that our dev is planning a dark story here. That means for me, I have to expect anything
2. You once mentioned that this story doesn't follow the usual logic like the other VNs. I agree with you 100% there.

So I'm afraid I'll have to take away your last glimmer of hope. I suspect that with EP5, or at the latest with EP6, the value will drop to ZERO. Seriously, I trust the dev to do ANYTHING!
 
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John972

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well, basically you gave the answers yourself:

1. You once mentioned that our dev is planning a dark story here. That means for me, I have to expect anything
2. You once mentioned that this story doesn't follow the usual logic like the other VNs. I agree with you 100% there.

So I'm afraid I'll have to take away your last glimmer of hope. I suspect that with EP5, or at the latest with EP6, the value will drop to ZERO. Seriously, I trust the dev to do ANYTHING!
Oh, I agree!

But, in trusting the dev to do ANYTHING, that really does mean anything.

Thus, I will never discount 100% the probability of certain "less-dark" things happening, even if I don't expect them. That includes Jamie not actually leaving (which seems highly improbable at this point), or a reconciliation with Rockford by the end of epi 6.

How, and if, the so-called Jamie LI path gets resolved is one of the things I look forward to, even while acknowledging it might not end well.

PS - the only LI route that doesn't seem totally f'ed up is the Aghavni one. I wonder in what manner IM will derail that relationship? :)
 

Chillout1984

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Oh, I agree!

But, in trusting the dev to do ANYTHING, that really does mean anything.

Thus, I will never discount 100% the probability of certain "less-dark" things happening, even if I don't expect them. That includes Jamie not actually leaving (which seems highly improbable at this point), or a reconciliation with Rockford by the end of epi 6.

How, and if, the so-called Jamie LI path gets resolved is one of the things I look forward to, even while acknowledging it might not end well.
At this point I also wouldn't even be surprised if Jamie would be murdered before she could go Harvard by either of the two killers that are around, and that death would be put on Rockford.
 
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John972

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At this point I also wouldn't even be surprised if Jamie would be murdered before she could go Harvard by either of the two killers that are around, and that death would be put on Rockford.
Bejeezus! That would be dark, especially as an epi 5 cliffhanger. I can imagine the furore and the salvating when necrophilia gets added as a game tag here. :LUL:
 

Chillout1984

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Bejeezus! That would be dark, especially as an epi 5 cliffhanger. I can imagine the furore and the salvating when necrophilia gets added as a game tag here. :LUL:
Unless I understand you wrong, I don't understand why would that be added as a game tag in that situation unless the murderer had sex with her after killing her?
 

yossa999

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At this point I also wouldn't even be surprised if Jamie would be murdered before she could go Harvard by either of the two killers that are around, and that death would be put on Rockford.
No, I think Em is now the perfect candidate for sactifice to the killer who killed those women and whose case opened the game. Monk completely ruined her love route for sensitive players, and now to avoid accusations of fetishizing incest, he just needs to cut her throat and throw the body in a public place.
 

Chillout1984

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No, I think Em is now the perfect candidate for sactifice to the killer who killed those women and whose case opened the game. Monk completely ruined her love route for sensitive players, and now to avoid accusations of fetishizing incest, he just needs to cut her throat and throw the body in a public place.
Nah, imo Monk shouldn't listen to those whiners and just tell the story he originally wanted to tell. Jamie (being the oldest and strongest connection emotionally in the game, besides Luis I believe his name was) would be the perfect candidate to be the next target/victim.

If Em was his original next target, that's perfectly fine, but he shouldn't change it because of people not liking the twist.
 

John972

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Unless I understand you wrong, I don't understand why would that be added as a game tag in that situation unless the murderer had sex with her after killing her?
It's a joke taking a poke at the addition of the incest tag following the epi 4 cliffhanger, which caused much polarized debate here. If Jamie were to be murdered, necrophilia would be the only way forward on the Jamie LI route, just as incest is seemingly the only way forward on the Emmeline LI route.
 
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minibaer12

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Oh, I agree!

But, in trusting the dev to do ANYTHING, that really does mean anything.

Thus, I will never discount 100% the probability of certain "less-dark" things happening, even if I don't expect them. That includes Jamie not actually leaving (which seems highly improbable at this point), or a reconciliation with Rockford by the end of epi 6.

How, and if, the so-called Jamie LI path gets resolved is one of the things I look forward to, even while acknowledging it might not end well.

PS - the only LI route that doesn't seem totally f'ed up is the Aghavni one. I wonder in what manner IM will derail that relationship? :)
You know, my friend, and this is my glimmer of hope: All and really ALL VNs follow an unwritten rule: If you have collected enough points at the end of the story, you will also end up with this LI!

Since I play with a mod, I am mercilessly collecting all the green answers to her that I can get.

On the way there, I will probably curse the dev a few times.

[Shit, i've forgot Accting Lesson, there was not so!]
 
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John972

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No, I think Em is now the perfect candidate for sactifice to the killer who killed those women and whose case opened the game. Monk completely ruined her love route for sensitive players, and now to avoid accusations of fetishizing incest, he just needs to cut her throat and throw the body in a public place.
Nah, imo Monk shouldn't listen to those whiners and just tell the story he originally wanted to tell. Jamie (being the oldest and strongest connection emotionally in the game, besides Luis I believe his name was) would be the perfect candidate to be the next target/victim.

If Em was his original next target, that's perfectly fine, but he shouldn't change it because of people not liking the twist.
Ya know, there has to be a purpose why IM introduced us to creepy Sara and that fricking annoying bleach-blonde dude at the bar in epi 1, right? Sacrificial lambs for the assassins maybe?
 

Chillout1984

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It's a joke taking a poke at the addition of the incest tag following the epi 4 cliffhanger, which caused much polarized debate here. If Jamie were to be murdered, necrophilia would be the only way forward on the Jamie LI route, just as incest is seemingly the only way forward on the Emmeline LI route.
True. Also, Aghavni could still be the next target, but that might be because of outdated information or just simply because she is investigating the case. We still saw her file next to Rockford's on one of the murderer's tables.

You know, my friend, and this is my glimmer of hope: All and really ALL VNs follow an unwritten rule: If you have collected enough points at the end of the story, you will also end up with this LI!

Since I play with a mod, I am mercilessly collecting all the green answers to her that I can get.

On the way there, I will probably curse the dev a few times.
Maybe if you're on a solo route, but not always if you're on a multiple LI/harem path. Melody is a good example where this could lead to an early ending, and almost everyone who's been around long enough knows about "The Choice" in AL.
 

yossa999

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Ya know, there has to be a purpose why IM introduced us to creepy Sara and that fricking annoying bleach-blonde dude at the bar in epi 1, right? Sacrificial lambs for the assassins maybe?
But why would assassins go for them? In my opinion, they are there to shake the moral compass of Rockford, and to give a reason to punish him for not choosing Colleen.
Although, it doesn't look like Monk needs any particular reason to punish Rockford (targeting the player, of course)
 

John972

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You know, my friend, and this is my glimmer of hope: All and really ALL VNs follow an unwritten rule: If you have collected enough points at the end of the story, you will also end up with this LI!

Since I play with a mod, I am mercilessly collecting all the green answers to her that I can get.

On the way there, I will probably curse the dev a few times.

[Shit, i've forgot Accting Lesson, there was not so!]
Alas, you do know [especially given AL] that it's possible that all those green points you collect for Jamie along the way will affect but a single dialogue exchange at the end of epi 8, when Rockford runs into Jamie on the street...

Low green points, Jamie friendzoned:
Rockford: "Hey, how are you little sis?" Jamie [pushing a baby stroller]: "Oh, hi, Rockford. How are you? By the way, I'd like you to meet Armin Jr..."

High Green points, Jamie LI path:
Rockford [on his knees]: " Jamie, please reconsider!" Jamie: " Pshaw! I've told you before Rockford, you had your chance in episode 1."


;) :) :LUL:
 
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Chillout1984

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Alas, you do know [especially given AL] that it's possible that all those green points you collect for Jamie along the way will affect but a single dialogue exchange at the end of epi 8, when Rockford runs into Jamie on the street...

Low green points, Jamie friendzoned:
Rockford: "Hey, how are you little sis?" Jamie [pushing a baby stroller]: "Oh, hi, Rockford. How are you? By the way, I'd like you to meet Armin Jr..."

High Green points, Jamie LI path:
Rockford [on his knees]: " Jamie, please reconsider!" Jamie: " Pshaw! I've told you before Rockford, you had your change in episode 1."


;) :) :LUL:
And in both cases Jamie will be beaten to death after Rockford has left
 
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