Monetization of Incest?

[Hunnilust]

Hi,

I'm a hobbyist artist and indie game dev looking into becoming an NSFW creator, I have lots of stories to tell across various kinks.

Some of my stories involve incest themes as it's more than just a fantasy to me. I have been in real consenting incest relationships. I'm demisexual, so familiarity is sexy to me. That's why I'm into incest themes. It's not the "taboo" that sells it for me, it's the familiarity.

It feels restrictive to actively avoid incest themes as a creator just because platforms like Patreon are against it. I guess the biggest confusion for them is they are not disuniting consensual incest themes between adults, especially in fictional works, and being pedantic about it.

I've seen quite a bit of successful creators with incest themes that are still using Patreon, are they risking it, or are some incest themes okay and their policies are more nuanced than what the content guidelines suggest? If Patreon is all about "risking" it, what other monetization options are there?

I am working on a story where two sisters are intimate, but once I checked Patreon content guidelines I decided, "Ok, maybe I can make them childhood friends who are roommates now?" Yes, that will satisfy my need for familiarity to an extent, but it feels so creatively exhausting to walk on eggshells. Of course, incest is never going to be my main niche, especially in a space with harsh over-policing without nuance, but it may surface as subplots here and there as it's deeply rooted in who I am. It's creatively exhausting to constantly censor my works.

Any advice, or suggestions?

 

[anne O'nymous]

I've seen quite a bit of successful creators with incest themes that are still using Patreon, are they risking it,

Yes.

If Patreon is all about "risking" it, what other monetization options are there?

SubscribeStar is the only real option. There's other platforms that would accept such content, but all are specialized on problematic content, so be ready to be side by side with white supremacists, QAnons, and p*d*shits.

 

[EnterYourNameHere]

The people must really hate you so that your patreon account will be banned for incest. Its a long term process to report a account. I tried it one time with a game named "incest ....", the overview something about "daddy, your daughter and so on" and the support just told me I have to proof them there are incest in the game -.-

 

[c3p0]

SubscribeStar is the only real option.

Depending on how you read it or better how they read it:

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[anne O'nymous]

Depending on how you read it or better how they read it:

You must be registered to see the links

Vague, isn't it?

OBSCENITY, ABUSE

1. Bestiality, rape, or incest
2. Lewd, filthy, or disgusting words or pictures
3. Animal cruelty or abuse in any shape or form - presenting, advocating, or promoting.
4. Live child abuse imagery and child pornography. Pornography is defined as real people engaging in sexual acts such as masturbation or sexual intercourse on camera.
5. Services, conversations, products that promote hate, violence, discrimination, terrorism, harassment, or abuse of any kind

Note: This is

You must be registered to see the links

. So I correct what I said this summer, it's not a reaction to Westy case and Australian authorities harassing them.


For the points 3 and 4, they are explicit; yet they clearly separate child abuse from child pornography and, while you can't have imagery (so whatever form) for the first, the second only regard real people.
But for the first point, you know that it's prohibited, but not under what form.

And so far I haven't heard about someone being kicked out of SubscribeStar, while the majority of their adult games contain incest, underage sexuality, rape and/or bestiality.

 

[Hunnilust]

I contacted SubscribeStar to clarify their content guidelines, but so far, I haven't received a response. I asked them if consensual incest themes between purely fictional adult characters presented textually and visually in art are allowed.

The biggest problem of over-policing by these platforms is they are afraid to normalize taboo topics so they ignore nuance and assume the extremes. I can completely understand if they are worried about normalizing non-consensual incest with minors, but they don't stop there. They ban the whole thing without any nuanced approach.

 

[anne O'nymous]

The biggest problem of over-policing by these platforms is they are afraid to normalize taboo topics so they ignore nuance and assume the extremes.

No, the problem is that they are subject to as many Law than there's countries in the world, and constraint by the rules set by their partners; especially payment processors. They have to make compromise with the first ones, and strictly follow the seconds.

They ban the whole thing without any nuanced approach.

What nuance do you expect?
You talk about "consensual incest", but it's not even something that do not exist. None consensual incest being nothing less than rape, how can "consensual incest" be a nuance? It's the only kind of incest that can possibly be legal, and it is only in around one third of the world.
This without forgetting that for the public's mind there's only one possible case of incest: The one they hear about in the news, therefore child sexual abuse, whatever if the said child is or not consenting.

 

[Hunnilust]

You talk about "consensual incest", but it's not even something that do not exist.

how can "consensual incest" be a nuance.

It exists. Consenting adults who are incestually intimate is no different than any other consenting relationship, we all essentially have a common ancestor if we dig deep enough after all. So, this over-policing of creatives is essentially a forced taboo out of blind fear of normalization and possible risks of abuse, especially when pregnancy is not even a factor like with mother/daughter, sister/sister, etc.

As an open-minded creative, I have no problem with father/daughter, brother /sister, uncle/niece, or aunt/nephew themes. However, I am on board with "powers that be" over incestual pregnancies, purely out of valid concern for the baby's wellbeing. I'm also with them over child exploitation, though I have no qualms with fictional Loli content as long as the characters are in unrealistic anime/fantasy style.

I make a distinction between consent vs non-consent and minor vs adult because I have been in an incest relationship IRL. I was not groomed or forced into it. We were a loving family, very affectionate, we were open about sexual topics but never sexual with each other. I as an adult willingly consented to it. Moreover, there was no risk of pregnancy. Consent, grooming, exploitation, pregnancy, etc... are usual concerns brought up by people who discourage incest themes. However, I am proof it isn't like that. Same with fictional stories I would like to tell. This nuance for creative works would greatly help as we creatives won't be restricted. They can still ban rape, child exploitation, etc. I just feel it's pedantic to police consenting adult relationships, no matter what form, it takes, incest or not.

 

[Hunnilust]

No, the problem is that they are subject to as many Law than there's countries in the world, and constraint by the rules set by their partners; especially payment processors. They have to make compromise with the first ones, and strictly follow the seconds.

Oh, I do include them with the platforms too. I am essentially saying "the powers that be" should be more flexible and nuanced when it comes to creative freedom. Murder is illegal, but is very common in fictional works because everyone collectively acknowledges it's fiction. So, a little nuanced distinction can seriously help creatives.

They selectively make exceptions. Look at Game of Thrones, it has lots of incestual themes, and those are played by real actors too, not even just words or art. Yet, the payment processors have no problem with HBO.

 

[anne O'nymous]

It exists. Consenting adults who are incestually intimate is no different than any other consenting relationship, we all essentially have a common ancestor if we dig deep enough after all.

You totally misunderstood what I said.

Consenting relationships mostly exist by opposition to forced relationships. In the first you consent on your own will, in the second you consent under social pressure (you marry the girl you got pregnant) or parental pressure (you marry who your parents tell you to marry).
But those two notions do not[/n] exist in an incestuous relationship. Therefore, and by definition, any incestuous relationship is consensual, anything else isn't a relationship but rape and/or sexual abuse.

So, this over-policing of creatives is essentially a forced taboo [...]

Before anything else, it's acting accordingly to the Law that apply in around two third of the world.

 

[Hunnilust]

Before anything else, it's acting accordingly to the Law that apply in around two third of the world.

Of course, but when we consider GOT exists, HBO is allowed to accept payments is Visa/MasterCard, and there are many states throughout the world that do not consider consensual adult incest illegal... it's all selective end of the day. Essentially, big corp/studios can get away with it, but lowly creatives can't. Oh well, nothing is going to change.

I fully understand the law is based on the majority sentiment and the over-policing is based on that law and discussing the nuances is not getting us anywhere. Rather than debating the right or wrongs of it (no two people will have an objective take on it as the whole thing is a subjective topic), I am looking for suggestions on how I can implement incest themes without having to look over my shoulder.

 

[Insomnimaniac Games]

Of course, but when we consider GOT exists, HBO is allowed to accept payments is Visa/MasterCard, and there are many states throughout the world that do not consider consensual adult incest illegal... it's all selective end of the day. Essentially, big corp/studios can get away with it, but lowly creatives can't. Oh well, nothing is going to change.

Actually, Visa is dealing with two lawsuits right now for antitrust practices. From the DOJ, and a class action. If they succeed, it's possible more competition might appear which won't be as draconian. Wishful thinking probably, but it's more being done then ever before.

 

[Count Morado]

If you do not make the incest sexually gratifying, but instead convey an interesting and compelling narrative which includes the subject - you have a greater chance at not worrying about being removed from such platforms.

That's the nuance.

If you are including the content with artistic merit and literary value, or as a survivor story, you should run it past the powers that be on the platform of your choice for their consideration. HBO lawyers had to approve every single questionable scene in GoT before it aired. Every publisher worth their salt has legal representation review all written works if they have concerns about infringing upon public decency laws.

If you are including the content for the sexual titillation and gratification of consumers, that would violate terms of service for many platforms.

it's possible more competition might appear which won't be as draconian.

Uh, no. They would be just as, if not more so, because the greater number of public opinion do not want to appear to support what is considered as deviant, or even pornography (whether they privately enjoy it or not). In fact, this could raise competition on how "pure" the financial service is.

 

[Insomnimaniac Games]

Uh, no. They would be just as, if not more so, because the greater number of public opinion do not want to appear to support what is considered as deviant, or even pornography (whether they privately enjoy it or not). In fact, this could raise competition on how "pure" the financial service is.

I'm an optimist, sue me.

 

[anne O'nymous]

Of course, but when we consider GOT exists, HBO is allowed to accept payments is Visa/MasterCard,

And

You must be registered to see the links

:

Incest
[...]
Permitted
Fictional plot points involving incest that are part of a larger narrative.

And, no, it wouldn't apply to an adult/porn game. They refer here to stories like Games of Throne, where the story would be radically different if the Lanister weren't incestuous.

[...] and there are many states throughout the world that do not consider consensual adult incest illegal...

As I said, there's around one third of the world where incest is legal. It's a big number since it's more around 60 countries, but it's still just one over three countries, what make them a minority... Therefore, "many" do not really apply here.

it's all selective end of the day. Essentially, big corp/studios can get away with it, but lowly creatives can't. Oh well, nothing is going to change.

Big corp/studios are not human beings, they can not have sex. And, as said by Count Morado, they have lawyers that scrutinize every single scenes to ensure that the risk of lawsuit stay as low as possible.
They aren't above the Law, they just spend hundreds of thousands to ensure that they stay on the right side of it; it's not the same.

[...] I am looking for suggestions on how I can implement incest themes without having to look over my shoulder.

Don't, or make it a purely anecdotal part of the story, and therefore a really low part of your game content.
Even by using a platform like SubscribeStar, or whatever platform that accept incest content, you would still have to look over your shoulder because you could be sued for the illegal nature of your creation.